tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5696765918888834793.post997854038926618313..comments2023-09-30T09:43:28.162-07:00Comments on Bucking the Dominant Paradigm: Childhood to Adulthood: The Liminal State and You!Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02619018164909616871noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5696765918888834793.post-52255965019255260362007-07-20T12:59:00.000-07:002007-07-20T12:59:00.000-07:00I found the discussion of liminality more engrossi...I found the discussion of liminality more engrossing than the central topic of "age of consent for pornography," so hopefully I can be forgiven for commenting primarily on the non-primary topic.<BR/><BR/>I speak as part of an apparent public opinion minority in that I consider the lack of severe, brief, formal or universal liminalities in our kulture to be a + rather than a -. I identify with the progressive movement, more than with any other movement that's into working within the system, anyway. Nevertheless, I cringe at the progressive prescriptions (esp. those of Thom Hartmann) for so-called "national service." I have strong anti-authoritarian tendencies, and don't approve of the "molding" of individuals by institutions or by the larger kulture. I have also been influenced by the copyleftist and transparency movements and disapprove of secrecy, and therefore of probably most tribal, fraternal or even professional rites of initiation.<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, speaking as a member of so-called Generation X (natal cohort 1965) I feel I have definitely been burned by the protracted liminal state of which you speak; having been systematically been underprepared for the reality of economic competition. The combination of child labor laws and compulsory education is deadly, but there are other ingredients in this evil mixture:<BR/><BR/>1. The downward trend in age of puberty (or so-called "sexual maturity") for both males and females, sometimes attributed to improved nutrition.<BR/><BR/>2. The upward trend in age of "economic maturity" to be sure due in part to the protracted liminality of which you speak, but also I hold due to the structural trend from gainful to contingent employment (especially for young adults), and of course the education arms race, which some attribute to technology.<BR/><BR/>3. The fetish American kulture has with associating "innocence" with "childhood."<BR/><BR/>In our popular kulture, loss of innocence is an expression that almost always has sexual connotations, often criminal. I'm way too innocent for my own age, but certain connections are finally forming in my socially naïve mind, and I would suggest that in our kulture loss of innocence occurs most profoundly in the following life events:<BR/><BR/>1. becoming a parent while young, poor or both<BR/><BR/>2. borrowing money<BR/><BR/>3. becoming addicted, to substances or to anything else<BR/><BR/>The notion of a "poverty line" is very real. The government's one size fits all poverty line (family size being equal, anyway) definitely is not. Poverty line is very subjective, but is nevertheless a very hard constraint. I have gotten in the habit of equating "loss of innocence" with anything that causes a sudden increase in one's personal poverty line. Is participation in pornography a cause of such increases, or an effect?Lorrainehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13567383019731167967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5696765918888834793.post-85061085649500072922007-05-22T06:08:00.000-07:002007-05-22T06:08:00.000-07:00Link added; sorry about that. ^^ I know you can ...Link added; sorry about that. ^^ I know you can get there through RenEv's place, but I doubt many other people do.<BR/><BR/><I>Now, we are giving our children permission to be slackers until they're..what...30?</I><BR/><BR/>Well, that being said (I'm 31 and a slacker...) I'm personally a huge fan of marriage not being a teenage affair. Gods, if I'd married the guy I liked when I was 15, he would be cheating on me and ignoring me while trying to convince me that an "open relationship" would be wonderful but unable to maintain the communication necessary to make it work, even if I WAS ok with polyamory.<BR/><BR/>Yeauch.<BR/><BR/>I consider the legal marrying ages (like statuitory rape) to be in place to protect the people it applies to (even though it's sometimes used otherwise). I am deeply uncomfortable with the idea that a 40 year old could marry a 12 year old and keep her pregnant until she dies, no matter what circumstances.<BR/><BR/>This argument was very narrowly framed for a reason. I don't think broad, sweeping generalizations about how things were once better really get us anywhere because, quite frankly, they're all but impossible to support. To take the view that the 50s were the embodiment of the nuclear family, one has to ignore anyone below middle class. To claim we should return there, one has to ignore the fact that people consider bathrooms to be basic utilities now, not luxuries. The world is different; saying "then was better" in a very general sense glosses over that.<BR/><BR/>And, you know, I AM one of those slackers. I don't think we're all bad. ^^Deoridhehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17235419292633778692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5696765918888834793.post-64572605219600481922007-05-14T16:08:00.000-07:002007-05-14T16:08:00.000-07:00The link in your first paragraph isn't working; fi...The link in your first paragraph isn't working; fix?Sour Duckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01970720171089778917noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5696765918888834793.post-55100088988175794082007-05-13T14:20:00.000-07:002007-05-13T14:20:00.000-07:00Some would argue that the liminal state (thanks fo...Some would argue that the liminal state (thanks for that, I didn't know it had a name)extends well into the late 20's, here in the US, and that many people never really outgrow it.<BR/><BR/>I have often believed if you legislate morality, by legal marrying ages, drinking ages, and so on, then you're just giving the individual a reason to abdicate responsibility until that legislated age. Our forebears married at 14 and 15, had several children before 20, and provided for their families, because it was expected of them. Now, we are giving our children permission to be slackers until they're..what...30?Rootietoothttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06804816032287310463noreply@blogger.com